tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post6044951399609177035..comments2024-03-16T07:13:50.487-07:00Comments on Lost Live Dead: November 28-December 1, 1966: The Matrix: Grateful Dead/Jerry PondCorry342http://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-89139580351747603662023-01-12T12:11:23.926-08:002023-01-12T12:11:23.926-08:00You were right! It's a guy named Marvin Boxley...You were right! It's a guy named Marvin Boxley, who was in the band Petrus. He surely knew Garcia from CSM back in the folkie days. See here: https://rockarchaeology101.blogspot.com/2020/06/petrus-wruthann-friedman-and-peter.htmlCorry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-9239478679755680602023-01-10T22:18:43.696-08:002023-01-10T22:18:43.696-08:00oops, yeah 68oops, yeah 68runonguinnessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-42220803277229799172023-01-10T14:24:29.322-08:002023-01-10T14:24:29.322-08:00Great connection--I assume you mean Hartbeats in 6...Great connection--I assume you mean Hartbeats in 68 (1968-10-10)Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-3373125839425987842023-01-10T12:06:30.249-08:002023-01-10T12:06:30.249-08:00The just published photos of Bear's reels of 6...The just published photos of Bear's reels of 66-12-01 on the Owsley Stanley Foundation FB page confirm the guest artist is Marvin. He is identified on the tape box for reel 3 on "Walking Cane" (Look Over Yonder Wall) and "The Way You Want Me To Do" (My Own Fault), presumably the same Marvin as on 66-10-10.<br /><br />https://www.facebook.com/OwsleyStanleyFoundationrunonguinnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11089424718490613109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-20121793224498563632014-03-07T21:45:15.888-08:002014-03-07T21:45:15.888-08:00Farther down in the comments, Yellow Shark noted t...Farther down in the comments, Yellow Shark noted that "the 11/17/66 for the Grateful Dead date is actually 1/7/66" - it was just a misreading of the label. In any case the 1/7/66 reel has never circulated, unfortunately. <br /><br />You have a good point that the "9/16/66" tape was actually from an unknown date at the Avalon - 9/16 was a conjecture, but it could well be from the Dec '66 run there, too, as Weir's "winter" vocal suggests. <br /><br />A couple other points seem mistaken, though. <br />On the Historic Dead record, Stealin' & Same Thing were credited to Peter Abram, meaning they were certainly taped at the Matrix. As well, you can hear that the recording sound is entirely different between the Avalon "9/16" tape, and either of the Matrix 11/29-12/1 tapes. (For instance, the Avalon tapes have louder organ & vocals.) Abram's Matrix tapes have a distinct sound and are not likely to be from another venue.<br />So I have no doubt that these Matrix tapes are accurately labeled, give or take a night. <br /><br />(The 11/19/66 Fillmore show date is not definite, but note that Weir does sing "autumn" in Dancin'.)<br /><br />I can't confirm the July '66 conjecture; but while we're on the topic of the Matrix, I should mention that the final reel in the 1966 mystery-reels set (tracks 15-18, labeled "Pauley Ballroom #2") is now thought to be from a Matrix show at the end of January '66 - the Dead mention that they're moving to LA "next week" and something's happening there "next Saturday," and announce the Loading Zone's set. The Matrix dates of Jan. 28-29, if genuine, seem to be the most obvious candidate.<br />(I don't know if anyone recognizes the voice of the announcer at the end of the set, after Midnight Hour gets the plug pulled?)<br /><br />Bear didn't record any known shows in 1966 after July, since the band dismissed him after the Vancouver run, and he didn't become the band's soundman again til around June 1968.Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-36223036056392072442014-03-07T15:18:20.071-08:002014-03-07T15:18:20.071-08:00Has the 11/17 reel ever been released/does anyone ...Has the 11/17 reel ever been released/does anyone have it? Is it labeled under something else? I've never seen a reference to it.<br /><br />For note, I'm pretty sure the 11/29 concert is actually from 12/23. Bob sings "Winter" in Dancin' on the 9/16 concert - which I think is from 12/24 - making these that two-day run at the Avalon (resolving the Sunflower legal issues - i.e. the 11/29 probably has to be from the Avalon). Then we have the 12/1 concert (Bob sings "autumn" in Dancin') and that 11/19 concert (the last two sets of which exist properly situated). So someone taped at the Fillmore and The Matrix?<br /><br />Could the Matrix concert (12-1) be mislabeled? All we can be absolutely sure of is that it was in the Fall and after the Stanley newspaper article (so really 10/5-12/20). I don't know how firm the 11/19 date is either, but could they both, for instance, be from either the November or December Fillmore runs?<br /><br />That would potentially account for the taping if Graham was regularly taping as someone mentioned.<br /><br />Possibly also worth noting that tracks 1-3 from the unlabeled 1966 archive reel are the July 31, 1966 set completing the Vancouver 66 tapes (29th starts with Standing and 30th with Dancin'). The 31st set were apparently mislabeled Pauley #2 ((~?) December 2, 1966) - I think that concert probably does exist somewhere (and the other Vancouver tapes were properly labeled). But again the point being that Bear recorded 5 straight dates and maybe seemed to prefer consecutive recordings - and may have recorded on December 2nd.<br /><br />Does anyone know when Bear rejoined in that capacity?Michael Sheflinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09591277507186542186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-52475998512440464822012-01-08T17:48:37.614-08:002012-01-08T17:48:37.614-08:00Hewitt, I emailed you on your Yahoo account.Hewitt, I emailed you on your Yahoo account.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-24039553392793224762012-01-08T17:06:27.050-08:002012-01-08T17:06:27.050-08:00Happy Holidays to All,
Yellow Shark, in response t...Happy Holidays to All,<br />Yellow Shark, in response to Corry's inquiry on Sanpaku, you mentioned Matrix reels dated 2/21/69 and 5/21-22/69. As you might imagine, I am very interested in knowing more. Corry knows my direct email if you want to converse off blog. Nice detecting everyone!<br />HPakuHewitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15864132307663273299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-19227438041484337152012-01-07T10:12:53.200-08:002012-01-07T10:12:53.200-08:00That's a good find. I'd wondered why this ...That's a good find. I'd wondered why this post didn't have the usual appendix on who the opening act was! And it does explain Jerry Pond's obscurity....Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-77271708429305945202012-01-07T09:51:32.842-08:002012-01-07T09:51:32.842-08:00Well, here's a little bit about Jerry Pond:
&...Well, here's a little bit about Jerry Pond:<br /><br />"Jerry Pond lived in Jules's antique shop. A tall, charming and likable guitarist and song-writer, he had shared concert billings with the Grateful Dead in San Francisco in 1966. When the FBI opened a file on him in their aggressive campaign to intimidate, jail, even kill leaders of the youthful movement for peace and social renewal, he left America and studied in the Mexican wilderness with a shaman. That shaman had sent him to find and study with a "Great One". Now, having searched, Jerry felt he had indeed found and was learning from such a one."<br /><br />The source is here:<br />http://movingintostillness.yuku.com/topic/1496/Kundalini-Yoga?page=6#.TwiFFkr_1dQ<br /><br />I am not really interested in wading through all of it (Mr. Pond seems to be somewhat peripheral to the story of Yogi Bhajan), but it would explain why we didn't hear about Jerry Pond subsequently.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-41288944515330760722012-01-07T09:40:16.190-08:002012-01-07T09:40:16.190-08:00November 17, 1966 was billed as Quicksilver Messen...November 17, 1966 was billed as Quicksilver Messenger Service (they played 15-16-17). It would have been typical for the Matrix to book a folksinger as the opener for a weeknight rock band, so Jerry Pond playing on Nov 17 seems very plausible.<br /><br />Any idea who Jerry Pond might be?Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-70002005002054666892012-01-07T09:34:40.274-08:002012-01-07T09:34:40.274-08:00I went back and took another look at the list - di...I went back and took another look at the list - digging out the original, scanning it and blowing it up. I now think that the 11/17/66 for the Grateful Dead date is actually 1/7/66 and is out of order. Just poor handwriting. However, the Jerry Pond listing is very clearly written as 11/17/66 and it seems to be overly co-incidental in that supporting the Grateful Dead at then end of November no recordings of Pond exist, but the rogue 17-Nov-66 date has not only a recording but Pond playing as well. I really need to do some work on the tape list and fire up the old time machine to get the validation done.The Yellow Sharkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17001772238662274893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-80693665823046476252012-01-07T09:27:39.301-08:002012-01-07T09:27:39.301-08:00Thanks for the extra note, YS.
For readers at la...Thanks for the extra note, YS. <br /><br />For readers at large, there is a (partial) list of surviving & mostly non-circulating Matrix tapes in the comments here: <br />http://lostlivedead.blogspot.com/2009/11/matrix-san-francisco-february-19-1969.html <br /><br />How so many non-Matrix shows ended up in the stash of "Matrix" tapes is in itself a spur to speculation! <br />But obviously, there's only so much we can conclude without access to the tapes themselves.<br /><br />For me, the most intriguing date is the Dead 1/7/66 - not only does it precede our earliest taped Dead show by one day, Deadbase has long had an interesting-looking (and plausible) setlist for that date, leading one to hope that this tape is authentic, was once heard, and may come to light someday.<br /><br />I would also like to hear more about the speculations behind the Dead's Dec 65 show at the Matrix. This is, after all, the very site for speculating about such lost & little-known shows!Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-48665880800431682242012-01-07T09:19:46.489-08:002012-01-07T09:19:46.489-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Yellow Sharkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17001772238662274893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-40639126462707507322012-01-07T04:47:27.461-08:002012-01-07T04:47:27.461-08:00That's an excellent description, YS, thank you...That's an excellent description, YS, thank you. I look forward to learning more!Fate Musichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05648291938690043423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-53697416598929727132012-01-07T03:01:49.915-08:002012-01-07T03:01:49.915-08:00The COAU Matrix list erroneously refers to the Dea...The COAU Matrix list erroneously refers to the Dead playing the Fillmore on Dec-8 rather than Dec-10. The date of Dec-8 for the Matrix show is speculation (as stated) going way back but it is not based on Owsley's statement. I do have a much updated Matrix list and will try and get it posted in the next few days. <br /><br />The tape list with the November 1966 Grateful Dead shows was compiled from what was written on the tapes themselves (one of the three separate batches of tape known to exist) and there is no track listing.<br /><br />We do know, and have known for many years, that some of the tapes are mislabelled but that the list remains an accurate recording of what the tape labels state. So it is not the list that is inaccurate, it is the labelling of the tapes. This has led most obviously to the erroneously dated Sparrow (Steppenwolf) Matrix recordings that were given a public release a while back. As an example, the complete Bilbo's Birthday recordings (Big Brother and The Holding Company, Great Society, Charlatans) from January 28, 1966 are contained in the stash of tapes and are marked as from the Matrix rather than California Hall. Also, we know that the recordings of Big Brother and the Holding Company, Steve Miller, Santana, Sandy Bull and Dan Hicks from June 16, 1968) were from the Fillmore rather than the Matrix (albeit a Matrix Benefit). There are a few other items that are clearly Fillmore or even Winterland recordings on list and these can generally be accounted for. <br /><br />There is clearly much work still to do to unravel some of these dates.The Yellow Sharkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17001772238662274893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-71255991867595958792012-01-06T19:25:01.792-08:002012-01-06T19:25:01.792-08:00Thanks for the clarification.
Through several mon...Thanks for the clarification. <br />Through several months of '66, the Dead usually played the Avalon the weekend after an appearance at the Fillmore, so leaving about 5 days for the Avalon to put up posters or advertise. <br />By the fall, the Dead were quite in demand and were playing one place or another in SF just about every weekend. Advance advertising was probably unnecessary!Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-33496671762981258052012-01-06T18:36:32.328-08:002012-01-06T18:36:32.328-08:00There was nothing preventing bands like the Dead f...There was nothing preventing bands like the Dead from playing The Avalon after they had played the Fillmore, just a contractual requirement that they couldn't be advertised. Graham definitely considered Chet Helms a significant rival. The key issue with an Avalon booking that followed a Fillmore one would be how early the Dead (or any other Fillmore band) were advertised by the Avalon.<br /><br />It's very hard to know at this remove when posters were actually "on the street," but if the Dead were playing at the Fillmore through the 10th of a month and opening at the Avalon on the 24th, at least hypothetically they couldn't be on an Avalon poster before the 11th.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-13259655979554936072012-01-06T13:14:13.277-08:002012-01-06T13:14:13.277-08:00After some more digging, I think my last post was ...After some more digging, I think my last post was in error.<br /><br />I don't know how much evidence there is for the Dead's playing the Matrix in Dec 65, but if it's from Owsley, it's very questionable. There seems to be a mixup between Dec 65 and Jan 66. (The COAU Matrix list refers to the Dead playing the Fillmore on 12/8, evidently meaning 1/8...)<br /> <br />Bear did not see the band until the Muir Beach Acid Test (12/11) - missed the next two Acid Test appearances (Palo Alto 12/18 & Portland in January) - and by his account, did not speak to the band until the Fillmore Acid Test (1/8). <br />So his knowledge of their December schedule would be sketchy, at best. <br /><br />From Bear's comments quoted in deadlists: <br />"I met the Dead formally at the Fillmore show on 11 Feb '66... There were only two Matrix shows, one in Dec '65, and the one before the Fillmore AT. The Matrix was a crummy little closet of a venue with barely enough room for 50 to 60 people to stand in, the big name bands didn't play there after they got up and known. The hall couldn't pay more than $100 for the act. They seldom had two acts/night and so far as I know never three. The Dead played there twice when they were unknown."<br /><br />Not only is he off on the date of the Fillmore AT, he says the Dead played only two Matrix shows, both before then (that is, before he met them). In spite of their playing several Matrix shows in late January, when he was definitely with them! (He seems to be right referring to the Jan 7 Matrix show, though.)<br /><br />McNally's book does not mention Matrix shows in Dec 65, but says in January: "On returning to the Bay Area [from the Portland Acid Test], they had a couple of gigs at the Matrix... It was a tiny bar with a capacity of perhaps 100, so small that the lighting booth was built over the toilet fixtures. There were noise complaints even without performers... Lacking a dance permit, the Matrix could not allow dancing, so it was not a particularly comfortable show. Nonetheless, Garcia loved it, because they were only a few blocks from the bay, and it was possible to hear the foghorns."<br /><br />(The Garcia memory is telling. The small size aside, the fact that the audience stayed seated would in itself make it a rather uncomfortable place for the Dead to play...)<br /><br />Anyway, in short, I feel like I've gone down a false trail here...well....all for the furthering of Dead knowledge!Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-47023520778781324882012-01-06T12:22:58.913-08:002012-01-06T12:22:58.913-08:00Something else struck me, which may be absurd.
Th...Something else struck me, which may be absurd. <br />The Dead's first Fillmore show had been 12/10/65. (And, by coincidence, they were also in a Fillmore run on 12/10/66.) We don't know the date in Dec 65 when they may have played the Matrix. (The Matrix list at COAU suggests it was the 8th - but may well have been the 1st.)<br />I have to wonder (whether anyone in the Dead would've noticed) if this Matrix run marks the one-year anniversary of their "arrival" in San Francisco. Or even if (after the stint at Pierre's) the Matrix had been the first "real" music club they had played in San Francisco. <br /><br />This may be a foolish idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there.Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-2060687796344765792012-01-06T11:16:10.605-08:002012-01-06T11:16:10.605-08:00I don't know if the general pattern of early D...I don't know if the general pattern of early Dead shows at the Matrix has been discussed elsewhere. <br />But with a Dec 65 show and several Jan 66 shows there, it seems the Dead were regulars at the Matrix until their trip to LA in Feb 66. (Which would make sense.)<br />But when they come back in April, there are no further shows at the Matrix. Indeed, there seems to be a sparse record of shows until late spring, when they start playing regularly at the Fillmore and Avalon - indicating perhaps that their popularity had gone up.<br /><br />So it is puzzling that they had this one fall 66 run there. By then they were popular enough to have a Fillmore run every few weeks, so I would imagine there were more fans at the Matrix doors than could get in! <br />Even if we don't agree with the demo-tape theory, clearly there was a one-time deal....but what was the deal? <br />As far as we know, members of the Dead didn't darken the Matrix doors again for nearly two more years.<br /><br />(By the way - as far as Bill Graham's contracts preventing other advertised shows in the area, there are numerous occasions in '66 of the Dead playing the Avalon immediately following a Fillmore run. So I would guess, either Graham did not see Helms as 'competition' at the time, or his contracts were not so strict. So it's possible his 'permission' for these Matrix shows was not an issue.)Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-25803748636446083072012-01-06T10:57:53.237-08:002012-01-06T10:57:53.237-08:00Yellow Shark's notes astonish me... I didn'...Yellow Shark's notes astonish me... I didn't know there were so many tapes attributed to the Dead from Nov '66. Is each reel assumed to be 90 full minutes? <br />And, perhaps stating the obvious, I assume these are taken from a list of Matrix tapes with no further tracklist information? <br />Is it possible one reel might duplicate another with a different date? (Happened all the time with old misdated Dead tapes in circulation.)<br /><br />The clear misdating of some of the reels is troubling, and makes me wonder about the list's reliability, especially if a Fillmore tape got attributed to the Matrix. <br />(We aren't even sure if the 11/19/66 Fillmore tape has the right date either, as some have claimed it to be from 3/17/67 - and it's only 75 minutes in any case.)Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-65929318827382669952012-01-06T09:05:14.807-08:002012-01-06T09:05:14.807-08:00February 13, 1969 (1 reel), May 21, 1969 (2 reels)...February 13, 1969 (1 reel), May 21, 1969 (2 reels) and May 22, 1969 (1 reel).The Yellow Sharkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17001772238662274893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-15800934549170886492012-01-05T20:04:06.022-08:002012-01-05T20:04:06.022-08:00Have you seen a Sanpaku show on a tape list, or is...Have you seen a Sanpaku show on a tape list, or is that just a hopeful inference? I agree that there are many fascinating bands who played the Matrix, in many cases in their only San Francisco appearance, and I would be fascinated to hear them.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-88457000288251870262012-01-05T19:54:08.047-08:002012-01-05T19:54:08.047-08:00And another thought; I am still certain the Gratef...And another thought; I am still certain the Grateful Dead played a midweek show at the Matrix in December 1965 - Owsley agreed with me over this. And finally, there is almost certainly some really interesting listening down in the depths of the tapes with Recurring Love Habit, Moon Rose Forest, Marvin Gardens, Linn County, Lamb, Sanpaku etc. all listed on the tapes. It would be neat to liberate them all.The Yellow Sharkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17001772238662274893noreply@blogger.com