tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post798016039766755925..comments2024-03-16T07:13:50.487-07:00Comments on Lost Live Dead: February 12, 1970 Ungano's, New York, NY 210 West 70th Street The Grateful DeadCorry342http://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-67567797416237553252021-02-13T08:18:24.092-08:002021-02-13T08:18:24.092-08:00Over on Twitter, a correspondent got in touch with...Over on Twitter, a correspondent got in touch with Julian Ungano, younger brother of Marco quoted above (https://twitter.com/DeadsoundApp/status/1360616755773726724). <br />He says<br /><br />But this gig definitely happened, I know the post you are referring to, I think the guy that was on the bill didn't play. The story I remember my Dad telling me was something like Ungano's used to do these impromptu shows all the time, because bands would come to town to play Fillmore East, and then Graham would get mad and they'd do the shows, so sometimes they would advertise the shows and then have to pull the advertisement and say the show was canceled but the band would drop by and "jam" so it wouldn't be an official show, thus not violating any contract with the larger venue. As kids we heard dozens and dozens of stories about different acts playing there. Hendrix, Cocker, Joplin, Dylan, etc.<br /><br />I suppose the fact the gig happened is one thing, though I know it happened for sure,because there are other bands that allegedly played there that my parents would be like "no that didn't happen", the Beatles and Zeppelin for instance. But I could see how the tape might not be from there, but it would be odd that it was labeled Ungano's by whomever recorded it only to be from a different random club on the same date in same area of the country.<br /><br />Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-23130433341192991512019-11-27T07:03:16.239-08:002019-11-27T07:03:16.239-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.ayanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02066898073106439423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-46888968780533214942019-11-26T22:08:10.754-08:002019-11-26T22:08:10.754-08:00That is intriguing. Alan thought he saw the Dead a...That is intriguing. Alan thought he saw the Dead at Ungano's but said it was "around the corner near the Fillmore" (Ungano's was miles away), and described it as "a small club with basically an open floor and a few risers in the back. They were just set up in one corner of the floor." <br />Hypothetically, if the Dead were to play a stealth show at a club near the Fillmore, which club would it be?<br /><br />I'm afraid this will remain a hypothetical, though. Even if Alan remembers the location right and just got the club name wrong, I wonder whether the show he saw was actually on 2/12/70 rather than, say, some date in '69. Dates are trickier to remember than places, and seeing the "2/12/70 Ungano's" date, he may have assumed that was what he saw.<br />I also wonder how Alan knew where the Dead would be playing, if it wasn't Ungano's...presumably there was some word-of-mouth among the Fillmore East staff. <br /><br />In fact, as part of the Fillmore East sound crew, Alan was one of the people who recorded the Dead's shows there in February '70, so if he didn't recognize the "2/12/70" tape as one of the Fillmore sets, I am a little skeptical of how precisely he recalls the club show. Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-18110991907656480192019-11-25T05:39:00.705-08:002019-11-25T05:39:00.705-08:00In an interesting coda to this discussion, Alan Ma...In an interesting coda to this discussion, Alan Mande, in a discussion string on youtube, says he saw the Dead on Feb. 12 at a small club close to the Fillmore, not an Ungano's, which was far enough away from the Fillmore that he wouldn't have gone there. Which raises the question of "If the Dead did not play at Ungano's Feb. 12, did they play somewhere else?"<br /><br />John Earl Walker's comments seem pretty definitive, but if Alan Mande -- who says he has "crystal clear" memories of seeing the Dead in a small club near the Fillmore East on Feb. 12 -- is right, could they have played somewhere nearby (where?) and could it have been an informal gig of some sort, perhaps the way Fleetwood Mac joined the Dead and Allmans on Feb. 11?<br /><br />It certainly seems like a possibility that if the Dead had a chance to play somewhere Thursday night, maybe even just sitting in, they might have done so, and Alan Mande might have been there. But it's not a possibility I've seen raised before, and I don't know what club he might have been at that was near the Fillmore East. klopezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14637867765748820451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-39418380715859700022019-11-21T07:32:32.021-08:002019-11-21T07:32:32.021-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.ayanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02066898073106439423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-27440930377161051202019-11-16T15:58:49.028-08:002019-11-16T15:58:49.028-08:00Well, someone could ask them, I guess. The fact is...Well, someone could ask them, I guess. The fact is, however, I don't think they would remember. If someone asked me what I did on a specific Thursday night at work 49 years ago, I probably wouldn't either.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-26369818166704195222019-11-16T10:27:36.810-08:002019-11-16T10:27:36.810-08:00Above was my comment^^^Above was my comment^^^Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06484156625197405152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-72032011227355137242019-11-16T10:26:30.446-08:002019-11-16T10:26:30.446-08:00Why doesn't someone just ask Bobby, Phil, Mick...Why doesn't someone just ask Bobby, Phil, Mickey or Billy? if Jerry were still alive I would ask him because he was a friend...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06484156625197405152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-51915092094747972732019-07-21T04:51:38.171-07:002019-07-21T04:51:38.171-07:00Black Sabbath played their first show in the Unite...Black Sabbath played their first show in the United States at Ungano's. Just a little fun fact... btw, I think the club merged with the restaurant next door and the combined space became 208 West 70th St. After many changes of hands, the property is now "Lincoln Square Steak." Ether317https://www.blogger.com/profile/09493485486233868467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-49486056071183779752013-01-28T19:38:30.220-08:002013-01-28T19:38:30.220-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.eventagency11https://www.blogger.com/profile/18053530333706617128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-722192142941989102012-02-10T07:03:47.975-08:002012-02-10T07:03:47.975-08:00Sorry, this is just as much a product of wishful t...Sorry, this is just as much a product of wishful thinking as it is of intellectual analysis.<br /><br />Lost in the primordial haze of Dead-dom, I have read all the threads and would just like to point out a couple of things:<br /><br />1) there is credible evidence the show happened- Nicky Ungano, Marty W. and Alan Mande have contributions<br /><br />2) most importantly, if you look at the actual ad in the VV, it does NOT say Creedmore State opened for the Dead at Ungano's on February 12. I believe their run was the 15th-17th. So John E. Walker could very well be correct that the Dead did not play the night they opened but MAYBE that was for a different night than the 12th.<br /><br />The part of me that is a "true believer" wants to believe the Dead did their stealth show there that night, so that is how I will lean. Maybe the best thing to do would be ask Phil Lesh or Bobby or Mickey Hart next time they're around. Phil it seems has a very good memory and unless he wants to rankle Bill Graham's bones he most likely would not mind answering.<br /><br /><br />Cheers! Philippe Bloch (Boston)- btw not as "hip" a town as you might like to think :(<br /><br /><br />ps you might want to question, after all, in a small club with a major headlining act such as the Dead, and an audience presumably of record execs and the like, why an "unknown" band (that was playing three nights there later that week) would warm up the stage for a presumably very limited engagement? or why not? if Marty's recollection is right and they did mostly Workingman's stuff, there would probably have been time for an opening act (depending on how many sets the Dead did). Still, it would have ben a PROMOTIONAL show, so probably not an extended one.<br /><br />Again, this theory has to be all conjecture. In the absence of absolute proof, we can only make educated guesses (as a cohort).<br /><br /><br />Peace.ecce homohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15076038539701314747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-79867721990345772322011-09-17T11:36:50.438-07:002011-09-17T11:36:50.438-07:00[continued from previous Comment]
If the Grateful...[continued from previous Comment]<br /><br />If the Grateful Dead played a private Warner Brothers party for booking agents and the like at Ungano's prior to February 1970, when did they play? They played Fillmore East on September 26-27, 1969 and January 2-3, 1970. I find the idea of the Dead playing January 1, 1970, right after Boston, quite unlikely. A record company wouldn't hire a club for that night, as few of their hungover invitees would have attended. This point towards September 1969.<br /><br />Conveniently, the fabulous and historically indispensable Its All The Streets You Crossed blog has posted the Village Voice ads for Ungano's from 1969 and 1970. A close look at the September listings suggests Thursday, September 24 as a very promising date for a Grateful Dead Ungano's appearance (look at http://streetsyoucrossed.blogspot.com/2010/06/1969-ads-unganos_25.html and scroll down to the ad for the Sep 3 1969 issue).<br /><br />In Fall '69, Ungano's generally had shows from Sunday to Thursday nights, and had dancing on Fridays and Saturdays. Presumably they didn't book acts on weekends , because the real action was in Greenwich Village and they wouldn't have been able to compete. The rest of the week, however, the club showcased great bands with new albums. This was a chance for touring bands to pick up a little mid-week cash and for industry people (who worked mid-town) to see who was touring. <br /><br />The groups booked at Ungano's for September and October 1969 were impressive: Mountain, Van Morrison, Sha Na Na, The Move, B.B. King, Dr. John and The Kinks. Keep in mind that Mountain and Sha Na Na had just formed, The Move and The Kinks were on their initial American tours (notwithstanding the Kinks disastrous '65 episode), Van Morrison and Dr. John had only recently attracted attention in their solo careers and B.B. King wasn't well known to white audiences. The 1969 Grateful Dead, with three obscure albums, fit in nicely with this bunch. <br /><br />On the September/October Ungano's ad, some Thursday nights have bookings, but not all of them. I have to suspect that those Thursday nights were private record company events ("Showcases" in the parlance) were the record company controlled the tickets and handed out free drinks at the bar. There's no better way to get promo men and booking agents interested in a band than to let them see the group live while drinking on someone else's dime. <br /><br />I note that no group is advertised for Thursday, September 25, 1969. I think the Grateful Dead were booked for a Warner Brothers showcase and played it, and that is what Nicky Ungano and Marty Weinberg recall. Marty may be foggy on the timeline, but I don't think he would recollect a club date out of nothing. I would point that the group booked the days before September 25, The Move, actually canceled (too long a story to go into), so the Dead could even have played Wednesday September 24. For now, however, I'm going to pursue the notion that the Grateful Dead played Ungano's on September 25, 1969, and the booked show on February 12, 1970 was inadvertently advertised and subsequently canceled. <br /><br />This has been a great comment thread and I am continually amazed at what keeps arising from it.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-46287312260655951172011-09-17T11:33:16.883-07:002011-09-17T11:33:16.883-07:00This has been a fascinating exercise in archaeolog...This has been a fascinating exercise in archaeological analysis when applied to memory. It's hard not to credit the fact that the first hand accounts of the Feb 12 show, from a member of the opening band (John E. Walker from Creedmore State) and someone else who hoped to get in, both recall the show being advertised but canceled. Two other sources, the son of the owner of the club and another person who had a distinct but long buried memory of seeing the Dead at Ungano's, seem to contradict that. However, the contradictory memories are either second hand (Marco Ungnao) or somewhat buried (Marty Weinberg). While it remains impossible to state anything for certain, the evidence is starting to lean against the Grateful Dead having played Ungano's on February 12, 1970, most likely because of the advertisement of what may have supposed to have been a private event.<br /><br />I don't give up easily however. In general, my experience with rock memories has been that while people's recollections may be mistaken, as they often concede, they are generally not lying. So I have a new theory: the Grateful Dead did play Ungano's, but they played there in late 1969. Nicky Ungano's memory (via his son) and Marty Weinberg's recollection stem from the earlier event, and because I raised the issue of the event being on February 12, 1970, the two events were conflated. This hypothesis would leave everyone's memories largely intact. marty Weinberg saw the Grateful Dead at Ungano's in Fall '69, and owner Nicky Ungano recalled it. John Earl Walker and others correctly recall the February 12 show being scheduled and canceled at the last second. I have to assume a Warner Brothers party was planned, featuring the Dead, but by advertising the show the band would have been in violation of Bill Graham's contract. if there were only 1000 tickets sold to the February 11 show, Graham would have been irritated at the potential competition uptown. <br /><br />I realize this theory doesn't entirely explain Marty Weinberg's recollection, as he mentions not having seen the Dead since September at the Cafe Au Go Go, and the timeline starts to get conflated. However, I find the detail about someone from the Warners Art Department pretty convincing. People forget dates and time sequences all the time, but being invited by a woman whose Dad worked for the Warners Art department has the ring of reality to me.<br /><br />[continued next Comment]Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-13115295746742897702011-09-11T11:56:37.929-07:002011-09-11T11:56:37.929-07:00Dear Corry342,
Thanks for your comments, and for ...Dear Corry342,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments, and for hosting as interesting a discussion as this, among many others it seems.<br /><br />My take about the Ungano's show is that it was intended to happen -- thus the ad -- but that it was cancelled, as indicated by John E. Walker and also by the Dead fan who said he was turned away at the door. <br /><br />The other reminiscences of the show are either second-hand (the son of the owner recalling that his parents were there) or qualified (Marty Weinberg's "somewhat" recollection).<br /><br />But I agree, this is still a game of speculation, and the unreliability of "memory" is one of the chief factors here, perhaps *the* chief factor.<br /><br />Again, thanks for hosting this discussion/inquiry. I, for one, am grateful.<br /><br />(*oops* I didn't sere John E. Walker's comment when I wrote this, but it coincides with my own take...)klopezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14637867765748820451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-84669108787325536232011-09-10T18:19:29.332-07:002011-09-10T18:19:29.332-07:00John, thanks so much for these fascinating revelat...John, thanks so much for these fascinating revelations.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-1237514042778009902011-09-10T18:03:06.147-07:002011-09-10T18:03:06.147-07:00Cory theres nothing to be torn about,it was only w...Cory theres nothing to be torn about,it was only when we (creedmore) arrived at the club that the unganos bros. told us that the dead had cancelled, we were very disapointed i can remember it clearly as we were looking foward to playing with them, unganos had a very small dressing room and we always had fun back there with all the groups. Its ovious that the voice add must have infuriated bill graham! (how dare ungano advertise the show! knowing that the filmore contract didnt allow any shows close to the filmore date)Im sure if the dead had done the show at unganos it wouldnt have affected the turnout for the filmore, but it was the point of it, and bill graham who didnt pull any punches wouldnt have been afraid to threaten the guys with legal action, and possible barring from future filmore shows, so it was easy for them to decide to not do the show at unganos. Also Nicky Ungano wasnt exactly afraid of anyones feelings and could care less if Bill Graham got mad about it.So when you weigh disapointing Unganos crowd ith being black-balled from the Filmore it was an easy decision to cancel.John Earlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12388075227666013469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-10322177474388682712011-09-06T16:50:55.977-07:002011-09-06T16:50:55.977-07:00klopez, you've made an accurate observation th...klopez, you've made an accurate observation that memory is far less stable than people think it is (try this at home at your next family reunion!). The 2/12/70 Ungano's show turns out to be a perfect petri dish for fragmentary memories and bits of information.<br /><br />I find myself torn. No one seems able to marshal definitive evidence that the show occurred. On the other hand, it was advertised, and during a Fillmore East run at that. If one accepts the proposition that the show didn't happen, how would we explain the advertisement? A Fillmore East headliner was advertised by mistake? Really? By a club that booked shows and advertised every week? It's not an easy proposition.<br /><br />Thanks so much for weighing in.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-87345227178898969382011-09-06T16:08:02.926-07:002011-09-06T16:08:02.926-07:00Once again, this has been/is an incredibly interes...Once again, this has been/is an incredibly interesting thread, for a large number of reasons. The John E. Walker account jibes with the "eyewitness" account by a fan of having been turned away at the door.<br /><br />Marty Weinberg's account would be compelling except that he said he remembered it "somewhat" -- more about this later -- and Marco Ungano's account that his parents were there is less convincing than his parents' accounts would be, if they could make them.<br /><br />It seems like 2/12 at Ungano's didn't happen, after all, although it was intended to.<br /><br />Regarding Marty Weinberg's memory: I'm sure he went to a LOT of shows, and he could be forgiven for such a mistake. I came into this thread wondering about Ungano's as a slightly "academic" question -- I knew *I* wasn't there -- but in the context of trying to place several other shows I'd been to -- which now loiok like they never happened:<br /><br />- a "Summer of Love" throwback show at Fillmore East with Quicksilver, Jefferson Airplane and Country Joe and the Fish, which I got into by jumping the gate at Fillmore and being hidden in the ceiling of the mezzanine by helpful Fillmore East employees: apparently those three never played together at FE...<br /><br />- a Pink Floyd show I sat in the third row at and was blown away: I had left NYC by the time they played Fillmore East according to internet lists. Maybe I'm remembering a Capitol Theater show, which was in the right time frame.<br /><br />All of which is to point out, in case it needs pointing out, how dicey "memory" can be, and why Marty Weinberg's "somewhat" resonated so loudly with me.<br /><br />Again, thanks to all for participating in this exploration/discovery. It has been very interesting, and very provocative.klopezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14637867765748820451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-13004349545277203452011-08-31T20:21:04.696-07:002011-08-31T20:21:04.696-07:00My site has some of the unganos stuff on the plum ...My site has some of the unganos stuff on the plum nelly tab found here;<br /> http://www.johnearlwalker.com/plumnelly.htmlJohn Earlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12388075227666013469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-38785994768417568232011-08-31T18:53:32.064-07:002011-08-31T18:53:32.064-07:00yes corry342
we played with funkadelic and just ...yes corry342 <br />we played with funkadelic and just about everyone else that unganos had at that time we were there 69/70, which included; bo didley,the stoges, john mayall, the kinks, fleetwood mac,dr. john, savoy brown,rod stewart and the faces,and tony williams lifetime just to name a few, we later signed with capitol recs and changed our name to plum nelly and put out one lp deceptive lines, our very first night at unganos we opened for buddy guy and junior wells, and jimi was there to see buddy guy play so we soon got usted to that atmosphere and got ourselves together; the night that jimi came in after the filmore with the band of gypsies we had opened for nrbq and arnie ungano told me jimi promised them he would come in after the filmore so when he played (using my marshall stack)there were only about 50 people left in the club! but the dead NEVER played there that im sure of.John Earlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12388075227666013469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-61684011800733577572011-08-31T08:03:08.815-07:002011-08-31T08:03:08.815-07:00John, did Creedmore State get to open for Funkadel...John, did Creedmore State get to open for Funkadelic a few days later? That must have been something.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-48611510187944763202011-08-31T07:54:46.524-07:002011-08-31T07:54:46.524-07:00Well, this certainly confuses me. Thanks for shari...Well, this certainly confuses me. Thanks for sharing, John.Fate Musichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05648291938690043423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-50880237298608452272011-08-30T20:30:32.032-07:002011-08-30T20:30:32.032-07:00John, this is completely fascinating. Do you think...John, this is completely fascinating. Do you think there is any chance that the Grateful Dead played Ungano's on a different occasion? There seem to be numerous assertions that the Dead did or did not play Ungano's, and it's hard to reconcile them.<br /><br />The detail about Hendrix playing Ungano's after Fillmore East on New Year's Eve is an amazing detail as well.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-29502218252509702712011-08-30T18:46:31.284-07:002011-08-30T18:46:31.284-07:00To set the record straight; once and for all;
The ...To set the record straight; once and for all;<br />The Dead did NOT do this show at Unganos!<br />I am John E Walker of the group Creedmore State we are in that Villiage Voice add with the Dead. Unganos was our manager and we were supposed to open the show for the Dead on that night. (I WAS THERE THAT NIGHT) When we got to Unganos that night Arnie and Nicky told us that the Dead had cancelled and they were turning people away outside.So the show at Unganos didnt happen probably because Bill Graham saw the add and stopped them.Many groups playing at the Fillmore would do shows at Unganos unannounced as did Jimi when he came into Unganos and played on New Yrs Eve 69/70 right after the late show at the Fillmore. Nicky Ungano and Bill Graham were friendy rivals.John Earlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12388075227666013469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5493557313410969282.post-29508827976990170562011-08-23T08:37:36.036-07:002011-08-23T08:37:36.036-07:00Klopez, thanks for the kind words and interesting ...Klopez, thanks for the kind words and interesting information. To respond to some of your comments:<br /><br />The fact that Wednesday was a pre-holiday night is an important point, and one that I largely ignored since I was focused on the Ungano's question. It does account for the profusion of tapes from the 60s (for various bands) with dates around Feb 12 and 22, since those were Lincoln and Washington's birthdays, and holidays regardless of the day of the week.<br /><br />It's completely fascinating to find out that the Fillmore East only had 1000 people for the 2/11 shows. You are certainly correct that even a 40% house (FE held 2500) would have been worth it for both BGP and GD, given they were there that weekend anyway.<br /><br />If you read through the fascinating Comment thread, it's clear that the Feb 12 Ungano's show really happened. It was a Warner Bros sponsored event, and the Dead played one extended set (90 min or so) on the club's sound system. Since it was the club's system, Owsley did not tape it, nor probably even attend.A few lucky civilians got into the club either because they knew Warners people or because the club sold a few tickets at the door. <br /><br />Thanks for the interesting insight on how February 70 was still a transitional period for the Dead's popularity in NYC.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.com